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$199 MMMM Vertically Oriented Measurements

by Clint DeBoer last modified July 20, 2007

199-vertical-rigging.jpgThe question remains as to how much of the variation in horizontal frequency response is due to wave interference between the drivers, versus the natural off-axis response of the driver itself. To answer this, we then turned the speaker on its side and measured how well it performed off-axis with the wave interference essentially taken out of the equation.

In the 1/24 octave chart below, it looks perhaps a bit better but very similar to what we originally measured. We’ll have to look at the 1/6 octave chart and standard deviation to see how much good this does.

199-vertical-chart1.jpg

In the 1/6 octave chart below, you can see that we essentially eliminated the upper midrange null around 1.5 kHz. The null was around -6 dB, which is quite audible, and when oriented vertically you can see all the variation is less than +/-2 dB with the exception of one frequency that increases to +4 dB. The lower treble performance is arguably better. The off-axis attenuation occurs at slightly higher frequencies, but is still an ugly mess, swallowing -8 dB of dialogue-critical treble. The 11 kHz tizzy spike is tamed down somewhat. Overall, the vertical orientation slightly improved the frequency variation, but not by much. The standard deviation of its radiation pattern improved only to 1.64. The majority of this speaker’s problems are with the radiation patterns and orientation of the drivers themselves. Starting with drivers like these, the speaker designer is for the most part doomed from the beginning.

199-vertical-chart3.jpg

In the chart below, you can see a comparison of how much variation the speaker had horizontally and vertically, and how they were related to angle. You can see that up to 20 degrees off-axis, the speaker performed better by having its drivers oriented vertically. Again, a lower standard deviation means less variation in frequency response. However, at angles greater than 25 degrees the angled front baffle was clearly worse off being turned vertically. There are several floor-standing loudspeaker designs that focus a vertical array towards the listener in the center plane, and you can see from these measurements why you wouldn’t do the opposite.

freq-response-variation2.jpg

If you were shopping for a surround sound system from this company, you would be doing slightly better by orienting the speaker vertically and would presumably do better using a center channel that’s identical to your left/ right channels. But the driver performances are so bad, that it mostly doesn’t matter what you do. You could turn the speaker completely around or put it in the closet and it won’t get much worse.


Average Frequency Variation From 0-Axis,
80-20000 Hz, (Lower is Better)

$199 MMMM Horizontal Center

1.77

$199 MMMM Vertical Center

1.64

 

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TLS Guy posts on October 20, 2009 22:33
irish;637493
Thanks for the recommendations. The Beta 360 would be too large for my application although it does look nice. The KEF Q series, iQ60c, looks like it might work pretty well as it's less than 7" tall. The speaker cabinet design is a bit different but that isn't a breaking point. How do co-axials differ from in sound or performance from a more "traditional" design where the speakers are seperate?


If more speakers had a wider bandwidth, then there would be no crossovers and multiple speakers. Multiple speakers are a workaround for a problem, not an inherent advantage.

The point of a coaxial speaker is to keep the sound coherent. What would be ideal is to have a bass/mid cone that crossed over to the tweeter, 4 kHz, then you would avoid a crossover in the speech discrimination band. However no such animal exists at present and crossover to the tweeter in current units is in the neighborhood of 3 kHz.

In a coaxial, the cone of the woofer acts as a wave guide to the tweeter. Things a re designed such that there is usually time coherence. However because a first order crossover is just about never possible, there are phase anomalies at crossover, just like any other speaker. There is symmetrical lobing and therefore the vertical and horizontal axis response is identical. The coverage is therefore conical.

As far as drivers to choose from the most well known are KEF and Tannoy. Thiel also has a coaxial center. Pioneer also have one in their range.

However, after having auditioned KEF recently the SEAS driver is in my view far superior.

You can buy a LOKI kit [madisound.com] that is very good value.

I use these drivers in my center speaker. The tweeter is used only in the lower driver, the upper one is an active fill driver and the tweeter not connected.



In this TL, I could not be more happy with it.
irish posts on October 20, 2009 15:54
lsiberian;637476
For If you are interested in a coaxial accessories4less sells KEF speakers for a pretty cheap clip. Still you'd have to like their other offering. I think the best horizontal center I've heard in the budget range is the Beta 360 treated with rockwool and peel-n-seal


Thanks for the recommendations. The Beta 360 would be too large for my application although it does look nice. The KEF Q series, iQ60c, looks like it might work pretty well as it's less than 7" tall. The speaker cabinet design is a bit different but that isn't a breaking point. How do co-axials differ from in sound or performance from a more "traditional" design where the speakers are seperate?
lsiberian posts on October 20, 2009 15:12
irish;637446
Thanks for your response! I was pretty sure that was the case but I may have no choice due to my set up. It's a living room/HT set up and acoustically won't be great but it's what we have. I'm still learning and have no idea what the bolded words mean. If I understand correctly when a center is horizontal the tweeter needs to be raised vertically so that it's not in line with the mids...
The stand I have is like this one http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15604297&postcount=105 [avsforum.com] so there isn't room a for a center due to the units being pushed together. I'm also size limited due to using a plasma on it's stand with a 7" clearance from base to screen so bookshelf speakers won't fit.
The best fit from quality mfgs that I've found would be the Def Techs or Paradigm CC-190 which does have vertically aligned tweeters http://paradigm.com/en/paradigm/speaker_only-specification-6-1-3-4.paradigm [paradigm.com]. Would that be a better option that the Mythos?
Thanks a bunch for helping me out!

These might work too but they're aligned as well http://paradigm.com/en/reference/speaker_only-specification-65-1-3-20.paradigm [paradigm.com]


For If you are interested in a coaxial accessories4less sells KEF speakers for a pretty cheap clip. Still you'd have to like their other offering. I think the best horizontal center I've heard in the budget range is the Beta 360 treated with rockwool and peel-n-seal
TLS Guy posts on October 20, 2009 14:30
irish;637446
Thanks for your response! I was pretty sure that was the case but I may have no choice due to my set up. It's a living room/HT set up and acoustically won't be great but it's what we have. I'm still learning and have no idea what the bolded words mean. If I understand correctly when a center is horizontal the tweeter needs to be raised vertically so that it's not in line with the mids...
The stand I have is like this one http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15604297&postcount=105 [avsforum.com] so there isn't room a for a center due to the units being pushed together. I'm also size limited due to using a plasma on it's stand with a 7" clearance from base to screen so bookshelf speakers won't fit.
The best fit from quality mfgs that I've found would be the Def Techs or Paradigm CC-190 which does have vertically aligned tweeters http://paradigm.com/en/paradigm/speaker_only-specification-6-1-3-4.paradigm [paradigm.com]. Would that be a better option that the Mythos?
Thanks a bunch for helping me out!

These might work too but they're aligned as well http://paradigm.com/en/reference/speaker_only-specification-65-1-3-20.paradigm [paradigm.com]


The paradigm C190 is on the right lines, but I think you would have to go with an all Paradigm system, as they have a definite voicing about them, that I did not care for when I auditioned them, at least the Studio 100s
irish posts on October 20, 2009 14:13
Yes they would. To make a good horizontal center, you need either a coaxial driver, or a three way with at least the tweeter above the mid, and preferably the mid band/pass crossover point spread 350 Hz to at least 4 kHz, like the B & W.

Thanks for your response! I was pretty sure that was the case but I may have no choice due to my set up. It's a living room/HT set up and acoustically won't be great but it's what we have. I'm still learning and have no idea what the bolded words mean. If I understand correctly when a center is horizontal the tweeter needs to be raised vertically so that it's not in line with the mids...
The stand I have is like this one http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15604297&postcount=105 [avsforum.com] so there isn't room a for a center due to the units being pushed together. I'm also size limited due to using a plasma on it's stand with a 7" clearance from base to screen so bookshelf speakers won't fit.
The best fit from quality mfgs that I've found would be the Def Techs or Paradigm CC-190 which does have vertically aligned tweeters http://paradigm.com/en/paradigm/speaker_only-specification-6-1-3-4.paradigm [paradigm.com]. Would that be a better option that the Mythos?
Thanks a bunch for helping me out!

These might work too but they're aligned as well http://paradigm.com/en/reference/speaker_only-specification-65-1-3-20.paradigm [paradigm.com]
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